I’ll say what I just said on a similar thread: if the internet goes down tomorrow, mesh will mean very little compared to ham radio.
Any quality transceiver built in the last 100 years will be more useful. It is purely about how many exist, how long they last, and their requirements for use (which are effectively, power and antenna).
Yes, there is a license that you need in non-emergency situations. It doesn’t change much anything in emergency situations, and it certainly doesn’t affect the fact that there are already millions of radios out there.
I certainly wouldn’t throw away a mesh if the world was ending – I’d set it on the desk while finding contacts on HF (=world band) using a ham radio. My chances of contact there are at least an order of magnitude better.
I’ll say what I just said on a similar thread: if the internet goes down tomorrow, mesh will mean very little compared to ham radio.
For what purpose? Hanging out with friends? Watching porn? Getting vital information around?
AFAIK, ham is really mostly geared towards synchronous voice communication, whereas most of the Internet is asynchronous communication in a variety of forms: text, voice, video, etc. In an emergency, synchronous voice is pretty important. But, for day-to-day life, asynchronous dominates most people’s usage of things.
So, if the Internet goes down tomorrow and you need to know why, what happened, etc. your best bet is probably not ham radio but normal TV and radio broadcasts, not rumours being spread by other random people using ham radio. If you live in a country where a complete overnight shut down of the internet, and complete stopping of all news broadcasts is possible, then ham might be useful for the first few days / hours to figure out what’s going on. But, in the longer term, ham isn’t really a replacement for the Internet. For that you’d want asynchronous sharing of various kinds of data, which is more a mesh network, not ham radio.
What good is ham radio in a “replace the internet” situation though? Can you send data over it? I read early that you can’t encrypt it. I’m not an expert on the subject but as far as I can tell from reading about it here, it’s not an answer to this topic.
It allows for worldwide comms, even in situations where entire infrastructures cease to exist. This is especially useful for emergency situations.
There are many, many digital modes on ham radio. The encryption question is one of legality – not capability. But the short answer is yes, you can do various things with data on ham radio.
I guess it’s a question of the level of disaster / political strife / etc which causes the internet to no longer be usable.
Edit: worth noting that mesh is effectively a kind of ham radio device, which uses some ham spectra and can be subject to the same rules about encryption (it is specifically illegal in the US to use “messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning”, FCC Title 47 Section 97.113). Digital signing, for example, does not violate this.
The only reason you don’t need a license for mesh is because it is using specific, reduced power transmissions and specific parts of the spectra. Adjusting these settings beyond the acceptable range (e.g. boosting output power) would mean you need a license just like any other ham device.
I’ve come to the realization that mesh nodes are little more than a gateway drug into the world of ham radio. And for that I’m grateful.
It’s not as good, and does everything worse than radio. The only real world use I have found is for when cellphone networks get overwhelmed at things like music festivals and large sports games. No one else’s texts go through, but I can toss by buds a node to put in their back pocket and we can stay in touch.
our local mature club is building our local mesh network out now as an introduction to the ham world. And it’s working. It’s getting the younger kids and adults through the door. And from there, it’s an easy thing to get them interested in more useful and fun forms of communication.
I bring FRS radios (normal ol’ walkie talkies) to the local Renaissance festival which has awful to no cell reception. It works great.
But yeah the barrier to even getting a technician license is too high. You get people that get excited and wanna do stuff and then they’re told they can’t. So things like meshtastic where they actually can do radio related things without a license are great.
I get you, it’s pretty easy, but I’m just saying trying to get somebody into a hobby, and then saying “actually you can’t talk to people until you schedule a test” is a huge barrier.
That said, ham equipment is generally able to be operated in a way that could interfere with police, fire, and air traffic. If you’re operating bigger stuff, you can end up with RF exposure or even exposing your neighbors. It’s all fun and games till you burn out Mrs. Johnsons pacemaker :)
I’d say they should make some safer HT’s that don’t step on emergency bands and do a scouts honor web test, but those bands are so poorly defined, and GMRS/FRS is already in that headspace.
There’s no restriction to purchase this stuff, so licensing will only stop accidents, not intentional bad actors. Even Baofengs can be put into a “ham mode” so they don’t transmit out of band. I don’t think we’d see it happen, but a license class under technician targeted at getting people legally able to use lower power handhelds super quickly would be nice. Even the technician question bank has questions about things that ultimately don’t really matter for making sure people operate in band as they should. The metaphor I give folks is like if your driver’s license test asked you questions about how to build engines. (And part of the reason we won’t ever see that is because amateur radio licenses allow you to construct and use your own equipment, as opposed to things like FRS where the part itself has to be certified.)
Now that I like. And I think there is room for both – IF people know and understand the differences.
Mesh against ham in an emergency is not even a competition, in my view. The numbers just aren’t there. But for random cellular failures etc, I see some utility.
Personally, I’ve just seen so much more about mesh lately than ham, and it makes me sad. If it’s a gateway, as you suggest, then great. I worry that people see it as a novelty and not a gateway.
Oh it’s a hundred percent just the novelty communication technology that is in vogue right now. I don’t really know if it’s a true zeitgeist technology or if someone with a lot of product to sell who is playing with the social media algorithm. But I guess I don’t really care much.
The trick is to find a way to seize on that opportunity. Now that our mesh network is structurally sound and sufficient, I’m working on using a raspberry pi to automate our ham club meeting dates, testing dates, and field days, and then blast those messages once a week or so over the mesh network. That way, an impulse buy turns into the discovery of a fuctional network and afterwards, a random person can discover a whole local community of people with all sorts of new things to learn.
You can lead a horse to water. But you can’t make him drink.
first you need a trough. That’s the mesh network. After, the horse needs to be thirsty. That’s the curiosity people have. information, the when and how and where, you can automate and passively tell them about. that’s the water.
I’ve been fooling around with Meshtastic for a couple years and haven’t come up with a real world use for it yet, other than scenarios like you mentioned.
What would be really cool is if cell phone makers could incorporate a mesh into their phones as a local public channel when the tower goes out. It would probably just be used by drug dealers or something, but it’s the only cool and functional idea I can come up with.
If I recall correctly, you can, but it removes your node from the public networks everyone else is using because hams cannot use encryption for coms as part of the rules for ham operation, as the non ham network is encrypted by default. You would have to build a secondary network independent of the public node list.
Correct me if I’m wrong. But that was my understanding of the difference.
Here meshtastic has become part of the emergency information network initiative. If there is a coms blackout, intercity/town civillian communications are to be handled by amateur radio enthusiast with licence and communications whitin the city/town will be handled by licence free systems. Meshtastic has been spreading well among the general public, so it has become most viable system to use at lowest level in the chain.
Have you thought about not trying to drag meshtastic down to try and prop ham up?
I get it, you spent a bunch of time studying for your ham and you don’t want it to feel like a waste, but lets be perfectly frank here- most people aren’t going to get a HAM license. It IS, however, VERY accessible for someone to buy a cheap gadget on sale to try out.
I never understand why ham radio people always try to sabotage every other communication method, but you guys do it every time.
I’m not trying to drag anything down. But I think it is important for many people to realize that the meshtastic is ultimately a ham device. It is using specific parts of the spectrum and reduced power to avoid needing the license. There’s nothing wrong with that, but by definition, it isn’t really adding anything that can’t also be done on ham. In a similar vein, the only direction to go in terms of enhancing its capabilities is further into ham.
And no, I didn’t spend a bunch of time doing anything. People vastly overestimate the complexity of the ham radio exams.
But by all means, use what you want to communicate. I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from it – I just think it’s important that they know the limitations of the device compared to the greater whole in which it exists.
I’ll say what I just said on a similar thread: if the internet goes down tomorrow, mesh will mean very little compared to ham radio.
Any quality transceiver built in the last 100 years will be more useful. It is purely about how many exist, how long they last, and their requirements for use (which are effectively, power and antenna).
Yes, there is a license that you need in non-emergency situations. It doesn’t change much anything in emergency situations, and it certainly doesn’t affect the fact that there are already millions of radios out there.
I certainly wouldn’t throw away a mesh if the world was ending – I’d set it on the desk while finding contacts on HF (=world band) using a ham radio. My chances of contact there are at least an order of magnitude better.
For what purpose? Hanging out with friends? Watching porn? Getting vital information around?
AFAIK, ham is really mostly geared towards synchronous voice communication, whereas most of the Internet is asynchronous communication in a variety of forms: text, voice, video, etc. In an emergency, synchronous voice is pretty important. But, for day-to-day life, asynchronous dominates most people’s usage of things.
So, if the Internet goes down tomorrow and you need to know why, what happened, etc. your best bet is probably not ham radio but normal TV and radio broadcasts, not rumours being spread by other random people using ham radio. If you live in a country where a complete overnight shut down of the internet, and complete stopping of all news broadcasts is possible, then ham might be useful for the first few days / hours to figure out what’s going on. But, in the longer term, ham isn’t really a replacement for the Internet. For that you’d want asynchronous sharing of various kinds of data, which is more a mesh network, not ham radio.
What good is ham radio in a “replace the internet” situation though? Can you send data over it? I read early that you can’t encrypt it. I’m not an expert on the subject but as far as I can tell from reading about it here, it’s not an answer to this topic.
It allows for worldwide comms, even in situations where entire infrastructures cease to exist. This is especially useful for emergency situations.
There are many, many digital modes on ham radio. The encryption question is one of legality – not capability. But the short answer is yes, you can do various things with data on ham radio.
I guess it’s a question of the level of disaster / political strife / etc which causes the internet to no longer be usable.
Edit: worth noting that mesh is effectively a kind of ham radio device, which uses some ham spectra and can be subject to the same rules about encryption (it is specifically illegal in the US to use “messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning”, FCC Title 47 Section 97.113). Digital signing, for example, does not violate this.
The only reason you don’t need a license for mesh is because it is using specific, reduced power transmissions and specific parts of the spectra. Adjusting these settings beyond the acceptable range (e.g. boosting output power) would mean you need a license just like any other ham device.
Here’s an example of intercepting and transmitting mesh content using an off-the-shelf ham radio SDR.
I’ve come to the realization that mesh nodes are little more than a gateway drug into the world of ham radio. And for that I’m grateful.
It’s not as good, and does everything worse than radio. The only real world use I have found is for when cellphone networks get overwhelmed at things like music festivals and large sports games. No one else’s texts go through, but I can toss by buds a node to put in their back pocket and we can stay in touch.
our local mature club is building our local mesh network out now as an introduction to the ham world. And it’s working. It’s getting the younger kids and adults through the door. And from there, it’s an easy thing to get them interested in more useful and fun forms of communication.
You meant senior citizens or content?
Why not both? 😉
Great typo, I’m leaving it.
I bring FRS radios (normal ol’ walkie talkies) to the local Renaissance festival which has awful to no cell reception. It works great.
But yeah the barrier to even getting a technician license is too high. You get people that get excited and wanna do stuff and then they’re told they can’t. So things like meshtastic where they actually can do radio related things without a license are great.
The question pool is so small you can memorize it :)
9/10 of the tech test is common sense or courtesy, and the bare minimum to make contact
I get you, it’s pretty easy, but I’m just saying trying to get somebody into a hobby, and then saying “actually you can’t talk to people until you schedule a test” is a huge barrier.
It’s likely why the hobby is dying.
That said, ham equipment is generally able to be operated in a way that could interfere with police, fire, and air traffic. If you’re operating bigger stuff, you can end up with RF exposure or even exposing your neighbors. It’s all fun and games till you burn out Mrs. Johnsons pacemaker :)
I’d say they should make some safer HT’s that don’t step on emergency bands and do a scouts honor web test, but those bands are so poorly defined, and GMRS/FRS is already in that headspace.
There’s no restriction to purchase this stuff, so licensing will only stop accidents, not intentional bad actors. Even Baofengs can be put into a “ham mode” so they don’t transmit out of band. I don’t think we’d see it happen, but a license class under technician targeted at getting people legally able to use lower power handhelds super quickly would be nice. Even the technician question bank has questions about things that ultimately don’t really matter for making sure people operate in band as they should. The metaphor I give folks is like if your driver’s license test asked you questions about how to build engines. (And part of the reason we won’t ever see that is because amateur radio licenses allow you to construct and use your own equipment, as opposed to things like FRS where the part itself has to be certified.)
I like the idea of a ham radio, but too voice shy to actually talk lol, so I don’t bother with it.
FT8 is fun and doesn’t require talking. CW too but you need to learn Morse code.
JS8Call and FT8 are digital modes that don’t require talking. Plenty of other things to do as well
Now let me introduce you to APRS 😁
It’s pretty much the HAM equivalent of Meshtastic
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Now that I like. And I think there is room for both – IF people know and understand the differences.
Mesh against ham in an emergency is not even a competition, in my view. The numbers just aren’t there. But for random cellular failures etc, I see some utility.
Personally, I’ve just seen so much more about mesh lately than ham, and it makes me sad. If it’s a gateway, as you suggest, then great. I worry that people see it as a novelty and not a gateway.
Meshtastic has some store-and-forward stuff that’s damn nice but someone has to set it up.
Meshcore has routers, repeaters and mailboxes.
It it could be pushed up to a few watts it would be far more useful.
There was a massive power outage in Portugal not too long ago and people used Meshtastic to communicate between cities to see who had power.
It does work, but it’s not a Final Solution
I expect they also used ham. It’s just a numbers game. Mesh doesn’t have them in comparison.
Both can coexist, more options is better when talking about decentralised systems
Oh it’s a hundred percent just the novelty communication technology that is in vogue right now. I don’t really know if it’s a true zeitgeist technology or if someone with a lot of product to sell who is playing with the social media algorithm. But I guess I don’t really care much.
The trick is to find a way to seize on that opportunity. Now that our mesh network is structurally sound and sufficient, I’m working on using a raspberry pi to automate our ham club meeting dates, testing dates, and field days, and then blast those messages once a week or so over the mesh network. That way, an impulse buy turns into the discovery of a fuctional network and afterwards, a random person can discover a whole local community of people with all sorts of new things to learn.
You can lead a horse to water. But you can’t make him drink.
first you need a trough. That’s the mesh network. After, the horse needs to be thirsty. That’s the curiosity people have. information, the when and how and where, you can automate and passively tell them about. that’s the water.
Good on you for using one to bolster the other! Smart use of the tech either way.
I’ve been fooling around with Meshtastic for a couple years and haven’t come up with a real world use for it yet, other than scenarios like you mentioned.
What would be really cool is if cell phone makers could incorporate a mesh into their phones as a local public channel when the tower goes out. It would probably just be used by drug dealers or something, but it’s the only cool and functional idea I can come up with.
Controlling home automation remotely without any internet access.
Tracking dogs, people or vehicles - again with no internet.
I don’t see how you could get enough reliability to do either from any distance.
It all depends on the environment and the amount of nodes. I’m not exactly controlling Fort Knox here so 100% reliability isn’t a big point
It’s still cool to be at the store 2-3km away and get a notification that the fridge door is open, via a completely independent network 😀
I get the exact same notification via the internet, but it’s not as cool
If they can’t charge an admittance fee or a per message fee, they won’t implement it. It goes against their business model.
But we can dream.
FYI if you’re ham licensed, you can boost the output power of your mesh radio. There’s a setting in most firmwares.
But you lose encryption.
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If I recall correctly, you can, but it removes your node from the public networks everyone else is using because hams cannot use encryption for coms as part of the rules for ham operation, as the non ham network is encrypted by default. You would have to build a secondary network independent of the public node list.
Correct me if I’m wrong. But that was my understanding of the difference.
You’re probably right. I noticed the feature, but haven’t personally tried it.
Here meshtastic has become part of the emergency information network initiative. If there is a coms blackout, intercity/town civillian communications are to be handled by amateur radio enthusiast with licence and communications whitin the city/town will be handled by licence free systems. Meshtastic has been spreading well among the general public, so it has become most viable system to use at lowest level in the chain.
But it just isn’t. Why not put those resources towards ham, where there are considerably more handsets already there?
This seems like a solution in search of a problem thay was already solved, hidden by people who don’t want a $10 license.
Have you thought about not trying to drag meshtastic down to try and prop ham up?
I get it, you spent a bunch of time studying for your ham and you don’t want it to feel like a waste, but lets be perfectly frank here- most people aren’t going to get a HAM license. It IS, however, VERY accessible for someone to buy a cheap gadget on sale to try out.
I never understand why ham radio people always try to sabotage every other communication method, but you guys do it every time.
Let other people communicate how they want.
I’m not trying to drag anything down. But I think it is important for many people to realize that the meshtastic is ultimately a ham device. It is using specific parts of the spectrum and reduced power to avoid needing the license. There’s nothing wrong with that, but by definition, it isn’t really adding anything that can’t also be done on ham. In a similar vein, the only direction to go in terms of enhancing its capabilities is further into ham.
And no, I didn’t spend a bunch of time doing anything. People vastly overestimate the complexity of the ham radio exams.
But by all means, use what you want to communicate. I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from it – I just think it’s important that they know the limitations of the device compared to the greater whole in which it exists.
Encryption, affordability, ease of access.
You get shitloads more people to buy a cheap gadget that’s easy carry with you.
If you start talking about ham radios and licences, most people loose interest before you finish the sentence.
The HAM license isn’t a trivial checkbox test, at least not over here
I’d love to know where a ham test is difficult.
Finland. The questions for the basic test require you to actually know your shit, they’re specifically worded so that you can’t wing it
I failed it, that’s how I know. By a few points but still 😀